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COMMfSSli)N ON NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 



Committee on the Library, 
\A6. House of Representatives, 

Wednesday, January 5, 1910. 
The committee met this day at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. Samuel W. 
McCall (chairman), presiding. 

k-iTl^u^'il^^^"^^ persons appeared and were heard in belialf of the 
bilJ (H. R. 15428) authorizing the President to appoint a commission 
on national historical publications: 

Dr. J. Franklin Jameson, director of the department of historical 
research m the Carnegie Institution of Washington ; Dr. H. T. Colen- 
brander, of The Hague, secretary of the Dutch Commission on Na- 
tional Historical Publications ; Charles Francis Adams, esq., presi- 
dent of the Massachusetts Historical Society, Boston, Mass • Rear- 
Admiral Alfred T. Mahan, U. S. Navy, retired; Prof. Charles M 
Andrews, of the Johns Hopkins University; Mr. Herbert Putnam 
Librarian of Congress; and Miss Ruth Putnam, specialist in Dutch 
history, Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to ordei-. Mr Rideout 
will you pleiise read the bill? 

Mr. M. E. Rideout, Jr., clerk (reads) : 

A BILL Authorizing tlie President to appoint a Commission on National Historical Pub- 
lications. 
Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of Amenea^iii aongress assemhJed, That the President be authorized to appoint 
with the adyiee and consent of the Senate, nine persons of the highest standing 
for scholarshui and judgment in the field of United States history to serve as a 
Commission on National Historical Publications, and to have authoritv to de- 
fray, out of such appropriations as Congress may from time to time make to 
said (-omnnssion, the cost of preparing and printing at the Government Print- 
ing Office such volumes of material for American history as it may deem most 

The Chairman. Now, Doctor Jameson, will you call these o-en- 
tlemen in whatever order you prefer? Or, begin yourself; iust as 
you desire. 

Doctor Jameson. I had not framed any notion as to 'that, Mr. 
Chairman. 

STATEMENT OF DR. J. FRANKLIN JAMESON, DIRECTOR OF THE 
DEPARTMENT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH IN THE CARNEGIE 
INSTITUTION, OF WASHINGTON, D. C. 

The Chairman. Perhaps, Doctor Jameson, you might just oive a 
comprehensive statement of the proposition, and then we wilT hear 
from the other gentlemen. First, give your name to the stenog- 
rapher. 

21918— N H F— 10 1 



2 NATIONAL HISTOEICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

Doctor Jameson. J. P^ranklin Jameson, of tlie ('arnegie Institu- 
tion. 

The CiiAiij.MAN. You are secretary of the Carnegie Institution? 

Doctor jA.>rESON. No, sir; I am director of the department of his- 
torical research of the Carnegie Institution. 

The Chairman. Now. proceed, Doctoi- Jameson, and give your 
views of this proposition. « 

Doctor Jaaiesok. I Avas secretary of the connnission which pre- 
pared a report submitted to the Committee on De]:)artment Methods 
with respect to this. 

Tlie Chaikman. Of what organization was that? 

Doctor Ja:mesok. That Avas a committee appointed by the Presi- 
dent; by the late President 

The Chairman. By the President of the United States? 

Doctor Jameson. Yes; by the President of the United States, to 
serve as an assistant committee to the Committee on Department 
Methods, and to report upon the specific matter of the government 
historical publications, and as to a mode by Avhich substantially the 
Government, through liaAdng a better system, might get a better 
product for such appropriations as it made toAvards historical docu- 
mentary publications. 

The theory upon which that commission AA'ent to Avork was that 
while the (jovernment of the United States had expended a large 
amount — a very large amount of money in some years — for historical 
publications, and Ayhile in all probability it Avould. like other gov- 
ernments, continue to spend money for iiistorical publications, the 
want of a sy^^tematic method of ap[iroach to the problem liad pre- 
vented the Ooyernment and the nation from getting full value for 
the expenditure made. The origin of the docuiTientary historical 
publications which haA^e been put forth by the Govermnent has been 
casual. A'^olumes or series have been suggested by individual depart- 
ments or by subordinates in Individ lud departments, by individual 
committees or clerks of connnittees in Ccmgress. and so they come for- 
Avard without a broad consideration of the whole field, without any 
systematic endeavor to discover Avhat are the best things that the 
Government might publish for the promotion of historical scholar- 
ship in the countiT. Some of the things that haA^e been published 
ha\'e been A^ery excellent; some have not been. Some have been 
highly advisable, things which every historical scholar and which the 
intelligent public Avould Avish to have, and others haA^e been things 
which liaA^e been of comparatively slight importance and value. It 
Avas thought by the President that the commi.-^iion which lie then 
named might, by going over the Avhole field and considering it in all 
its aspects, from the point of a^cav of historical production and from 
the point of vicAV of historians, provide a better system for dealing 
with the whole matter. So this commission canvassed all the differ- 
ent parts and aspects of American history; pointed out where a 
great deal of work had already been done, and Avhere, on the other 
hand, gaps existed ; attempted, in other Avords, to shoAv hoAV, by sup- 
plementing the A^ast body of historical publications which the Gov- 
ernment has brought out, the thing might be rounded out into a sys- 
tem and those things published which most need to be published. 

This material deals chiefly with documentary publications, the 
supposition being that the Government Avould not publish histories, 



^lAH 12 1910 



" NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 3 

but would publish materials for histories; and therefore the ques- 
tion what sort of materials would best serve the interests of his- 
torians and best be worked up by private endeavor subsequently 
and subserve the interests of the next generation was the question 
that was chiefly before us. We made a report upon that, which was 
approved by the committee on department methods and transmit- 
ted to the President, and by him transmitted to Congress in Febru- 
ary last, a little wdiile before the end of the session. 

That report exists in the form of a quarto pamphlet, in the form 
made out by the committee on department methods. 

The Chairman. Do you happen to haAe any extra copies of it? 

Doctor Jajnieson. Yes, sir. I have several here, which are at the 
service of the committee if desired. It also exists in this form : 
"A message from the President of the United States transmitting," 
and so forth; a Senate document — Senate Document No. 714 of the 
Sixtieth Congress, second session. 

Xow. after such a preliminary survey of the field and of 'the needs, 
and of the gaps and the means of filling those gaps, and after 
describing the practice which has been followed by other govern- 
ments in this matter, chiefly the practice of having an expert com- 
mission to deal with the thing in a continuous and orderly manner, 
the commission proceeded at the end of this report to recommend a 
system of that sort for our Government, a system whereby a commis- 
sion, independent of departments and composed of persons versed in 
history and of good judgment in historical matters, should hereafter 
propose plans and supervise the execution of plans for the historical 
publications of the Government— that is, that hereafter a systematic 
endeavor shall be made to meet the needs of historians and of the 
readers of the future by providing such volumes of documents as are 
most needed, and by seeing that they are w^ell executed. This we 
have conceived to be not only a measure for improving the product, 
but an economical measure, a measure wdiich would save the Govern- 
ment money. 

Assuming that the (Tovermnent was to spend considerable sums 
of inone^'^ for historical publications in the future, as it has in the 
I past, it Avould be the means of seeing to it that the Government got 
j the worth of its money by having what was needed, rather than what 
was not needed; what was planned for deliberately, rather than 
what was of casual origin ; and having what w-as executed done well 
and in accordance with a systematic plan and scientific control. This 
report ended with a bill which gives the simple outlines of such a 
commission. That bill, slightly modified, is the bill which is here 
before the committee. 

The Chair:max. Doctor, can you tell us briefly what the other gov- 
ernments have done in this matter ? 

Doctor Ja^ieson. V*^ell. some of them began wuth modes of opera- 
tion as casual as the United States has hitherto pursued, but nearly 
all of them now have conmiissions of about this sort ; commissions 
of historical experts which plan and execute volumes of historical 
documents which they suppose to be of the most importance and 
value to the public ; commissions which plan them and supervise their 
execution. That is substantially the system in every important 
country except England, and in England it prevails with respect 



4 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

to one part of their historical output, namely, the publications in the 
control of what is called the " historical manuscripts commission," 
although they are still going on with the older series not supervised 
by such a commission, but supervised by the master of rolls, who, 
although an equity judge, is the head of the archives service. 

The Chaikman. Can you give the counuittee a notion of the com- 
parative expenditures in the past of the (Tovernnient of tlie United 
States and the foreign govermnents in connection with historical 
publications ? 

Doctor Jameson. The systems differ so much that to make exact 
comparisons probably is not possible. About fifteen 3^ears ago I pre- 
pared with some care a paper for the American Historical Associa- 
tion upon that subject — the expenditures of foreign governments in 
behalf of history — and tlie data there given are pi'obably substan- 
tiallj- true at the present time. It api)ears from ihis table (p. 7) 
in this report of our committee that the United States Government 
has on the average expended in printing documentary texts, calen- 
dars of manuscripts, and other historical volumes $109,000 per annum 
since the year 1890. Now. T do not thiuk the figures are given for 
other countries; yes 

The CiiAiiiMAN. I have an impression that we lia\e been expend- 
ing more than other go\ermnents. 

Doctor Jameso>\ Yes. I can answer the (piestion best, so far as 
other countries are concerned, by reading from page H() of this report: 

Some years :\'j:o, when a sytJteiiuitic attempt was made to ol)tain figures for 
the comparison, tlioy were siiendiii}; considerably less. Great Britain was then 
spending about $7.5,000 per amium for the prei)arati(*n and itrintin.tr of docu- 
mentary historical volumes; llnssia about Jf.lO.OOO; France aboiU .$."!O,0lK); Ger- 
many and Prussia, for preparation alone, not prints, about $2o,000 ; while the 
United States, then at the height of its e.\i)endltme for tlie official records of 
the war, was spending in such ways more llian $250,000. 

The United States was then at the height of its expenditure and 
was spending $2r>0,000 per annum, but on the average of the last 
twenty years it has been al)out $ir)0,000, while the average of other 
countries, I think, has not much changed from what it was com- 
puted to be in 1890. We have spent much more money than they 
have, therefore. 

The Ciiaikman. Have you a pretty good notion of the character 
of the material which other governments have been printing, so that 
you can express an opinion of the comparative results — whether they 
are getting as much for their less expenditure as we are getting for 
our greater expenditure? 

Doctor Jameson. Yes ; I think I knoAv them pretty intimately, and 
it is quite certain that they are getting more for their monej^ The 
quality of their historical publications is distinctly higher. On the 
other hand, of course, in saying that they are getting more for their 
money it must be remembered that the cost of such things, the cost 
of learned labor, is less in Europe than in America, as in many 
other things. 

The Chairman. You do not think the tariff has anything to do 
Avith that, T suppose? 

Doctor Jameson. I do not see how it can have. But the reason 
why the quality of their work is higher is mainly the fact that a 
better system is followed and better talent is selected and employed. 



NATIONAL. HISTORICAL. PUBLICATIONS. 5 

The Chairman. My colleague, Mr. Burke, suggests. Doctor Jame- 
son, to ask you whether you have considered the question of what 
the expenditure w^ould be under this bill — the probable expenditure. 

Doctor Jameson. Exactly what Congress may choose to appro- 
priate. 

The Chairman. But what would be necessary to give the results 
that are really desirable? Have you considered that question? Of 
course, if you have not considered it you will not address yourself 
to it. 

Doctor Jameson. This commission spoken of in the bill could do 
extremely useful things for the Government and for the historical 
public upon appropriations of so small a matter as $25,000. But 
after about $10,000 or something of that sort is expended annually 
in maintenance, all in excess would be simply an increase in the num- 
ber of excellent volumes of historical matter which could be brought 
out per annum. That is why I spoke indefinitely when you first 
asked the question. It is a commission of which I suppose in any 
case the running expenses would not be great. The most of a sum 
so small as $25,000 would be spent in the production of volumes, and 
the more dollars appropriated — the larger the appropriation — the 
more volumes per annum. 

Now, in this survey by our committee of the needs of the Govern- 
ment and of the public with respect to historical publications (pp. 
9-34 of the report) a great many things are laid out. There is a very 
extensive programme which ought in the future to be carried through. 
But whether it should be carried through at a rapid rate or at a 
slow rate would depend upon the size of the appropriations. There 
is nothing in the scheme Avhich calls for any definite portion of that 
programme to be executed at any definite time. It would be a mis- 
take to attempt to execute it rapidly. It is not possible to cause that 
whole progranmie to be carried out with good quality in a ^hort time. 
Rapid execution would be bad execution. 

The Chairman. Is it your idea that the commission should have a 
salary ? 

Doctor Jameson. The report of our committee in the scheme which 
is set forth here on page 40 provided for a compensation to the 
members of the commission, and that, I think, would be advisable. 
It would be impossible for such a commission to carry out its work 
without coming to Washington and holding meetings two or three 
times a year. It would be impossible to have the country adequately 
represented unless men who are remote from this place as well as 
men who are near it — men in the P'ar West and- AVest as well as in 
the East — should be appointed, that all historical interests of the 
country should be represented. That would mean also an appropria- 
tion for traveling expenses of the members in coming to such meet- 
ings. I suppose if it were to do anything large the commission would 
have to have a secretary and some small office force, but the bulk of 
the appropriation would inevitably be spent in preparing and print- 
ing such volumes as might be ex])edient. with a rapidity proportion- 
ate to the appropriation of the year. One hundred and fifty thou- 
sand dollars, which is the average of the last twenty years, would 
be altogether too much for any such commission to start out with. 
If such a connnission were established. T suppose it would be inex- 



b NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

pedient for them to start otherwise than with a considerably less 
appropriation than that. After the}' get under headway I think it 
might be found possible to s[)end that much ; but I should not think 
so, because quality would be more important than quantity in such a 
service. 

The Chairman, Will you indicate the character of the things which 
probably the commission would deem best to print, in a general way? 

Doctor Jameson. They are named here in the middle of page 34; 
several things selected from all the recommendations which had 
occurred to them, to which they would give the foremost place. For 
instance, on the military side, it is obvious from the situation of 
things at the AVar Department that the thing most expedient to be 
dealt with first wouhl be the official records of the war with Mexico. 
Those are in a state to be published. Of things at the Library of 
Congress, any one would say, I should suppose — I know we have a 
better authority here than mine about that — but I believe it is gen- 
erally considered that after the journals and papers of the Continental 
Congress the papers of Andrew Jackson are the most needful to be 
published of the materials there. 

In the colonial period we have rather more need of a series of 
commissions and instructions to the governors of the colonies than of 
any other one thing toward the elucidation of the history of the co- 
lonial period ; but I should say that the one great recommendation 
which the committee made in this report was that a series continu- 
ing the old American State Papers, but adapted to modern condi- 
tions and adapted to the materials of the last seventy years, should 
be generated. That whole series of American State Papers in folio 
was an extraordinary production for a young nation to have carried 
through, and is invaluable to all historical students of the period 
from 1789 to 1828. But from the year 1828 the series could be given 
a greater expansion on the economic line, but substantially along the 
lines of the American State Papers. A continuance of that, under 
such a title as National State Papers, ought to be undertaken. Most 
of the recommendations which the committee made could be summed 
up as portions of a series of national state papers, subdivided very 
much as the old American State Papers were. That would be. in the 
judgment of the committee, the most important single undertaking 
that the future commission could take up. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else j'ou desire to say, doctor? 

Doctor Jameson. I do not think so. 

Mr. Burke. Doctor, does this bill contemplate the creation of a 
permanent commission — that is, to serve indefinitely? 

Doctor Jameson. I understand so; and I should think that would 
be expedient. A steady policy framed by a relatively permanent 
commission would, I should think, give the best product. 

Mr. Burke. "Wliy is it necessary to have a commission consisting 
of so many as nine? 

Doctor Jameson. Perhaps it is not necessary, but in the operations 
which the committee proposes they thought of nine as a number that 
would enable different aspects of history, different interests in his- 
tory, different parts of the country, to be represented, and they 
wished to have a commission the scope of which and the interests 
of which should be broad. They also thought that in any relations 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 7 

with the departments there should be some such scheme — although 
that would not be developed in the act — as that which is set forth 
here on page -iO, whereby subcommittees of three should be appointed 
by the commission to act with subcommittees of three to be appointed 
by the individual dei)artments. Of course, hitherto most of the his- 
torical publications have been the offspring of particular depart- 
ments, and this commission would need to exercise, with regard to 
them, discretion and tact in an advisory way, which would best work 
out, we thought, if subcommittees of an equal number, representing 
on the one hand the departments and on the other hand this com- 
mission, should try to get together in such a way that no publica- 
tion sliould be issued which had not the approval of a representative 
subcommittee of this commission on the one hand and of a repre- 
sentative committee of the department on the other hand. That is 
not a detail to be put into the act, I dare say, but, at any rate, it 
would be a useful mode of operation, and calls for a little larger 
commission than four or five or six. 

Mr. BriJKE. "What does the report indicate as to compensation, the 
amount to be paid ( 

Doctor Jameson. Nothing is intimated as to that, except that it 
is intimated that it would be appropriate that there should be some 
small compensation, because the members of the conunission, if they 
are fit men to deal with such problems as these, are men who already 
have their occupations, and would devote to this as much time as 
they could in coming here to meetings and in dealing at home with 
the reports submitted to them or documents transmitted to them 
by their chairman and secretary. 

The Chair:man. And the Government Avould really get the benefit 
of what the,y are doing in their private avocations; for instance, if it 
be pursuing some branch of history in some imiversity. that w^ould 
be their regidar work? 

Doctor Ja:mesox. They would usually be of that class. If the 
Government wished to have the best historical talent for such a 
commission, the wisest and most competent to advise in this matter, 
it must seek them where they are. and generally they are occupied 
with university work, from which they get their liveliluxid and from 
which they could not be wholly diverted, but from which they could 
divert part of the time to a work like this. 

The Chairman. And historical scholars outside of the regular 
universities ? 

Doctor Ja:meson. Yes. But that is not so large a class as those who 
are occupied with university work in this country. 

The Chairman. Xow, Doctor, would you be good enough to indi- 
cate the order in which you would like to have the conmiittee hear 
the various gentlemen? Perhaps it would be Avell to hear the secre- 
tary of the Dutch Commission on National Historical Publications. 

Doctor Jameson. Yes. 

The Chairman. We will hear Doctor Colenbrander. 



8 NATIONAL HISTORICAL. PUBLICATIONS. 

STATEMENT OF DR. H. T. COLENBRANDER, OF THE HAGUE, SEC- 
RETARY OF THE DUTCH COMMISSION ON NATIONAL HISTOR- 
ICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

The CiiAiKMAx. Doctor, the coniiiiittee would be very gl«<-l to hear 
you, and would like to hear especially of .such an organization as the 
Dutch comniiHh'ion, and how they do things in Holland. 

Doctor CoLENBRANDER. In Holland a few years ago the whole mat- 
ter was left to private enterprise, private societies. Of course, a 
good number of publications were made through subsidies by the 
State, and people went for the snbsidies to that department of the 
State which was subservient to the subject. So a number of publi- 
cations have been paid for b}' the war department, others. being sub- 
.sidized by the department of the interior, and others being subsidized 
by the marine department. The lesult of it was that people who 
were best aware of the matter had the idea that the Government was 
spending money on certain parts of a system which it would better 
take in hsuid itself and devote attention to it itself and have the 
work done by the best talent in the country. That idea l)ecanie gen- 
eral. It was only a questicn whether they would give a grant to the 
existing National Historical Society or appoint a committee them- 
selves. They resorted to the last line of action, and appointed a 
committee of ten persons, to meet once a year, and as often otherwise 
as they deemed necessary, in the central department of archives 
at The Hague, and vested the presidency in the general archivist of 
the Kingdouj, one of the archivists acting as secretary. 

The commission was to consist of 10 members, for the most part 
university jjrofessors, and some of them archivists and private his- 
torical scholars of a high standing. The first work this commis- 
sion resolved to undertake was to make a general survey of all the 
matters they knew would be of use for the study of national history, 
and, on the other hand, of all existing publications, so they made a 
comparison between what existed and what might be claimed or 
represented to be necessary for the proper study of history; and so 
they came to the result of pointing out a certain number of gaps 
to be filled up by new publications. 

This report Avas presented to the minister of the interior, and with 
his leave it was printed and offered to the historical societies and 
historical scholars, to make them aware of Avhat the commission was 
about. Then a certain sum was granted on the budget of the min- 
istry of the interior for the free use of the counnission. The sum 
has been raised from time to time as it proved that it was not enough 
to do all that the committee Avanted to be done. 

In comparison with the sums I ha\e heard mentioned here this 
morning, of course the sums granted there are very small; in the first 
place, on accoimt of the greater chea]>ness of labor of all kinds in 
Holland, and. secondly, the object in itself is smaller, according to the 
smallness of the country. The general o})inion. T may fairly state, 
is that the system has Avorked well, and that it is of use in bringing 
forth especially such publications as are too difficult and too vast to 
be procured or to be published by private scholars in their leisure 
hours, because really there do not exist many private scholars who 
have their full time to give to such a fhino-. ^lost of their time is 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 9 

taken up by other work, by university, wci-k. oi- work of quite another 
kind in connection with their livino-. so tiiiit the experience which we 
have had is that it is not enough to oive a certain sum and appoint 
a coirn.nittee to spend that sum, but it is also necessary to have a cer- 
tain staff of people who are available for doing that work. A.nd so 
a second step we are now goino- to take is to appoint on a small scale, 
which may be expanded after a few years, a certain number of peo- 
ple who will be considered as government officials, to be intrusted 
with such government publications, which of course does not exclude 
the idea of other scholars being interested in the work, but it is to 
give assurance that such publications as may not appeal to private 
scholars, and which may be deemed probably the most necessary by 
the connnittee and the most proper to be procured or published bv 
the state, will find alwavs somebodv on hand to be put in charge 
of it. 

The Chairman. Can you give the connnittee some illustration of 
the works that you have printed, or that have been printed through 
the action of the commission in Holland? 

Doctor CoLENBRANOER. Ycs. For instance, one of the first things 
the committee did was to undertake a large publication of documents 
to connect the history of the old Dutch Republic, which till then had 
largely fixed the attention of scholars, to the history of modern 
times. So a large publication has been undertaken of the revolu- 
tionary period, beginning in 1795. The seven volumes that have 
appeared bring the history down to the year 1800. This publication 
is to be continued until the year 1840. 

Another thing is the })ublication of materials for the history of 
Dutch trade. A great number of serials have been projected, two 
of which are now in pre})aration. one dealing with Baltic trade from 
its beginning to the end of the eighteenth century, and one with the 
Mediterranean trade and the Levant trade in the same ])eriod. One 
of the publications deals with the history of the cloth-making indus- 
try in the city of Leyden. as an instance of the development of an 
industrial center from the Middle Ages down to the present time. 
One of the publications is to deal with the history of the Amsterdam 
exchange and the Amsterdam banks. 

The Chairman. It would be a document that would be very valu- 
able in America just now. 

Doctor CoLENBRANDER. Other publications are intended to fill up 
gaps left by existing pul)lications. which have been stopped before 
they were finished, because the j^ublisher died or because the society 
had no more money to spend upon them, or for some reason like that. 
One of the things the state ])ro})oses to do is to provide for missing 
parts of publications, which have been undertaken in former times 
by somebody else, and it is intended that it shall be the central his- 
torical agency of the country. The division of labor bt'tween the 
state agency and the foremost historical societies is mostly this, that 
the historical societies confine themselves more and more to publish- 
ing materials of a short character which form an entity in them- 
selves, Avhile the state agency confines itself chiefly to the publication 
of long series of homogenous documents, which are properly left to 
the state, because they are more costly and because the state can 
better secure regularity of the product. 



10 NATIONAL, HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

The Chairman. Have you anything further to otfer, Doctor? 

Doctor CoLENBRANDER. 1 thank you, no, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The committee is under great obligation to you 
for your very illuminating statement about the custom of your 
country. 

Now, Doctor Jameson, who will you suggest? 

Doctor Jameson. I would suggest Mr. Adams. 

STATEMENT OF CHARLES FRANCIS ADAMS, ESQ., PRESIDENT OF 
THE MASSACHUSETTS HISTORICAL SOCIETY, BOSTON, MASS. 

The Chairman. Technically. I suppose it is Mr. Adams, of Lin- 
coln, but known outside as of Boston ; perhaps better known as of 
Massachusetts. 

Mr. Adams. That would do, sir. 

Doctor Jameson. I suggest that the description might be "' pres- 
ident of the Massachusetts Historical Society.*' 

Mr. Adams. Yes. In this connection that would be my proper 
designation, "■ president of the Massachusetts Historical Society." 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Adams. I have very little to say, and the time of the committee 
is of great value, and in the presence of men like Mr. Jameson and 
Mr. Putnam T should not pretend to express any opinion in relation 
to the character of the publications of other nations, or as to the 
precedence which should be given to the national publications here. 
The only thing I would have to say which Avould be of any value to 
the committee would relate to this proposed commission, and that 
can be put in very few words. 

The essential thing with respect to every couuuission of this sort 
is the seci'etary. Mr. Chairman, you will get a perfectly analogous 
case in the famous work done by Horace Mann, of Massachusetts, in 
connection with the public schools. He was there the secretary of 
the board of education, and as secretary lie accomplished this work. 
It is just so in one of these things. T should very strongly dissent 
from any idea that the members of this conunission should be salaried. 
Necessarily if they are, it is a small salary, and a small salary is a 
great inducement to very })oor material. The one person, in my view 
of the matter, who should be salaried would be the secretary. The 
other meuibers should serve because the appointment is considered 
an honorable distinction, as they do on the board of the Smithsonian 
Institution, for instance, as they do on the Peabody fund ; that it is 
an honor and a compliment to be appointed ; and all the compensa- 
tion that they receive would be simply their expenses in attending 
meetings. 

I should strongly advise, from my own experience, that the com- 
missi(m be not less than the number named in the bill, provided you 
do not pay them, provided it is an honorary distinction, and that the 
only salaried pei-son would be the secretary, and he should be not 
only a recording officer, but the head of the thing, and the organizing 
mind connected with it. He should be a salaried person, nnd the 
salary should be sufficient to invite to it the high order of intelligence 
and experience and observation and education that the work requires. 

Then the work avouIcI be mapped out in n leisurely way and would 
be gone at in an orderly way — a tiling which we have never yet done 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 11 

in this couutiy. We have done an immense amount of printing-, but 
it is all of what mioht be called a spasmodic character. They would 
print this, tliat, and the other thino-. and when they got through with 
printing something or other, they would, in certain cases that I have 
been acquainted with, have an army of clerks, and so forth, and the 
object would be to keej) them in ])osition and keep them employed, 
and then they would print a great deal of matter which is of very 
slight value. If properly handled and gone at in a well-considered 
manner, this proposed commission would save a great deal of public 
money by preventing this indiscriminate printing here and there and 
everywhere without any head or any order, and they would gradually 
settle down, as lias been the case with Holland, as I understand, and 
with othei" governments — they would settle down on a well-considered, 
systematica plan (^f pul)lication, Avhich would move along on estab- 
lished lines, and at the end of a few years accomplish very consider- 
able I'esults. 

But I do think that if there is one thing in connection with every- 
thing of this sort which is pernicious it is attaching to the offices 
small salaries, which invite ver,v ordinarj^ men, which make it an 
object with verj' ordinary men, and, in the second place, having a 
man of inferior qualifications in the position of secretary — having" 
a man there who is " looking for a job," as the expression is. But 
if this bill were reported and passed in the simple form proposed and 
the commission were then organized and established on the lines 
that I have indicated, I think that any expert in these matters would 
say at once that it is a most desirable thing to accomplish ; and the 
result would be not only a reduction of the enormous amount of 
worthless material which is now published without any organization, 
but if proceeded with slowly and in a well-ordered manner, in a 
few years we should have what is a very great desideratum. I think 
that is all T have to suggest. 

The CHAiRjvrAx. Have you anything to suggest, Mr. Burke? 

Mr. Bui;ke. No. He has brought out tlie very idea T had in 
mind. I had in mind the idea that this commission, if it was to ac- 
complish anything, would have to rely largely on the secretary-. 

Mr. Adainis. Yes. I will give you the case of the society of which 
T am the head, the jMassachusetts Historical Society, and that is a 
case exactly in point. That is the oldest historical society, I be- 
lieve in the world, at any rate in America, and it is the mother or 
the father of all the historical societies in America. It is limited in 
membership by law to 100 members. Now, that society has published 
a great deal of very valuable nuitter, but as I look through its pub- 
lications — perhaps uoav 150 volumes, I do not remember — the amount 
of waste that there has been there is mortifying to me. One of my 
efforts has been, as death made a change possible, to get a secretary, or 
what we call an editor. Within a year we have got Mr. Worthington 
C. Ford, a very accomplished editor, and he is the one salaried man 
connected with the whole institution, and Mr. Ford is bringing slowly 
and in a mature fashion things into shape, and there is not connected 
with the society in any way, except in a mere subordinate capacity of 
assistant librarians and people of that sort, a single salaried man 
except Mr. Ford. All the members, if they should receive money. 



12 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

would consider the system destructive and demoralizing at once. 
Whatever is done is done for the highest possible reasons and public 
considerations and as a matter of public obligation, and the introduc- 
tion of salaries, I think, is simply ruinous. 

Mr. Burke. Have you any idea as to the probable expense that 
would be incurred under a commission such as you have in mind? 

Mr. Adams. No, sir; I have not for the United KStates. T know 
what we have in the Massachusetts Historical Society, where we 
publish only perhaps a couple of volumes a year, or something of 
that sort. There we should be considered by you as a very moderate 
establishment, as our entire expenses, all the running expenses of the 
establishment, are not more than $12,000 or $18,000 a year, and that 
includes the building and the library and everything connected with 
it. But I must freely say that as to the Ignited States Mr. Putnam 
and Doctor Jameson would have an idea better than I, and I should 
not presume to put forth my opinion in comparison with theirs, as 
they are so much better qualified to speak on this subject than T. 

The Chairman. We thank you. Xow, Admiral Mahan. 

STATEMENT OF ADMIRAL ALFRED T. MAHAN, IT. S. NAVY, 

RETIRED. 

Admiral Maha>;. I have very little to say, Mr. Chairman, after 
the gentlemen Avho have spoken, with all their experience, because I 
have no experience in the matter. 1 presume that the Government 
proposes to go on with publications of this character, and the ques- 
tion is how they are to get the best results with the money they are 
to spend. 

I should not have spoken of it at all, but I find myself difiering so 
much from Mr. Adams's point of view with regard to salaries that T 
think I ought to speak upon the matter. So far as I now remember 
of the movements of the Committee on Documentary Publications, 
which was our name, it was I who suggested the idea of compensa- 
tion. These eminent gentlemen are to do a certain amount of work 
for the Government, and they should be remunerated. But the case 
is not the same, in my apprehension, as that of a historical society 
in a State, which is a [)urel,y voluntary society, not employed by the 
State in any way, but purely a voluntary association of men who 
come together voluntarily, and their own interest carries on this work. 

I entirely agree with Mr. Adams that the active or working man 
must be the secretary. More will depend upon him than upon any 
one member, but you will call upon these other gentlemen to do a 
large amount of work for the Government, which will be in a measure 
a large economy for the Government if they do the work conscien- 
tiously, and I always experience tlie cons^cientious pressure that is put 
upon me when I feel that I am being paid for the work I am doing; 
I feel that I must do it better than I woidd do voluntary work. Of 
course the interest in the work comes in to encourage a man already 
disposed to do it. That is anothei- matter. But these gentlemen will 
be called away from the work in which they are immediately inter- 
ested to engage in one in which they can not fail to have some in- 
terest; they will be called to meet sometimes, because as historical 
students they can not fail to wish to see the thing carried on to the 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. IS 

very best advantage. But the Government, in intending to employ a 
number of men, ought to give them some moderate compensation as 
representing the time they give and their experience in the matter, 
and also to exert that influence that comes to a man when he is 
receiving money and who expects that he must give work in return. 

As regards the methods and personnel of the commission, I pre- 
sume that the commission will be chosen, as the expre^ssion here is, 
of men of the highest standing and judgment. Of course, that is a 
matter of opinion, but it can be assumed that men of high standing 
would seek and get the appointment. We must assume that a cer- 
tain amount of discretion would be used by the persons who appoint 
them. I think that the secretary should be adequately salaried, but 
beyond that I think there is nothing for me to say. 

Mr. Burke. I would like to ask you if we have not a number of 
commissions at present, who are rendering service to the country in 
a similar sense with this commission, that are not salaried? 

Admiral Mahan. I do not know. Of course, I might know 
through the press, but I do not know actually even in that way. 

The Chairman. Mr. Putnam, would you speak? 

Mr. PuTNAiM. Perhaps, after Professor Andrews. 

The Chairiman. Very well; Professor Andrews. 

STATEMENT OF PROF. CHARLES M. ANDREWS, OF THE JOHNS 
HOPKINS UNIVERSITY. 

The Chairman. Professor Andrews, you are of Johns Hopkins 
University? 

Professor Andrews. Yes, sir. As I see the question before us, Mr. 
Chairman, it is simply trying to bring the United States into con- 
formity with other countries that have adopted a scientific method 
in dealing with their papers and documents and preparing them for 
the use of scholars and the public at large. It is rather well known — 
I may be here repeating what others have said — that while the Gov- 
ernment has expended large amounts of money in the publication 
of its historical material, it has not always expended that money 
as wisely, as economically, and to the best advantage as it might have 
done. This commission is simply an effort to bring the country 
into line with those countries that have recognized the necessity of 
adopting scientific methods and employing experts in the handling 
of the documentary material at their disposal. 

My particular experience happens to lie in connection with the 
British archives. Now, the conditions prevailing in England are in 
many respects quite different, of course, from those which prevail 
here. NeAcrtheless, the principle involved in all that is done in Eng- 
land is exactly the same princijjle as underlies the meaning and pur- 
port of this bill; that is, to intrust not only the publication but 
originally the care and preservation, and eventually the publication, 
of such material as is necessary to write the history of Great Britain 
to those who have made it a special study and have become experts 
in handling and dealing with the material, and who are competent 
by virtue of their wider knowledge to select and present the material 
selected to the public at large. 



14 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

I do not quite see why in rejiard to historical materials it would 
not be deemed desirable to place the control of such materials in the 
hands of men and women who have given up more or less the better 
part of their lives to study of that subject. In almost any other 
phase of activity one would certainly select [)ersons who had become 
expert in their particular fields to give advice, or to make selections, 
or to consider the whole question of dealing with this material in 
the best way and for the best purpose. It seems to me that the liill 
has no other object before it than that of doing for our historical 
material what is done for other forms of knowledge in fields perhaps 
more material, or Avhat may be called " economic fields." For that 
reason many of us would feel that it is a matter of pride to the United 
States that the country should recognize this fact, that its historical 
material can be better dealt with by those who have given more or 
less of their lives to the study of it than by those who, perhaps, are 
interested in the subject, but who lack, perhaps, a certain amount of 
expert knowledge and a knowledge of its comparative importance or 
relative value from the standpoint of an expert and the method of 
pressenting it. 

I make the plea from that standpoint. The United States has not 
risen as yet to a very high level in the eyes of other countries in re- 
gard to questions of this kind. We are very backward in the matter 
of preserving our material, particularly so in regard to local and 
state s^^stems and countries. We are perhaps the most backward 
government in the world in that respect. Our neglect and disregard 
of the material of our history is a matter of more or less notoriety. 
It is much better here as to materials in the possession of the Na- 
tional Government, and with a good many of those who are interested 
in history and in our history, and in the place that our liistt)ry as- 
sumes among historical workers elsewhere, it is a matter of pride that 
we should take a position which would dignify us very much more, 
I think, than the position which we have taken in the past. This 
measure which is brought forward here is simply in the interest of 
the attainment by the country of a position of that character. It is 
a matter of pride and honor to this country to fall into line in that 
respect with other countries that have done much the same sort of 
thing in their own way. according to the conditions at hand, and we 
should stand very much better in the eyes of the world at large if we 
should do something similar, in conformity with the materials we 
have at hand and the conditions that prevail here. 

The Chairintan. Mr. Burke, do you wish to ask any qnestions? 

Mr. Burke. No : I think not. 

The Chairman. INIr. Thomas? 

Mr. Thot^ias. No. 

Mr. Burke. Yes; I would like to ask one question. Wliat, in your 
opinion, would be the advisability of asking a commission to serve 
without compensation «r whether they should be compensated? 

Professor Andrews. It is a very difficult question to answer. I 
should think, rather than have a measure like this fail, that the mem- 
bers who are interested in the matter would be perfectly willing to 
act or serve gratuitously, within certain limitations. I mean to say 
that when it came to the question of giving advice and meeting to 
consider the character of the publications to be done, it would act in 



IfATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 15 

very much the .same manner as does the historical manuscripts 
commission in P2n<>lancl, whicii is a body of men holding dignified 
posts there, and which serves as an advisory body only, simply con- 
sidering what ought to be done, and themselves doing nothing in the 
way of actual labor. Of course they serve without pay, but the real 
work is done by their group of three or four or five very carefully 
selected experts or clerks, as they are called there, by whom the work 
is done. I think if any actual work is done by members' of the pro- 
posed commission, their services ought to be paid, but if it is merely 
to act as an advisory board it seems to me the question takes on a 
somewhat different character. Personally I think every man ought to 
be paid for what he does, even if he does it for the love of his sub- 
ject. I think it is only a matter of fairness and reasonableness that 
he receive something for his labor. However, in this country the 
experts selected miglit perhaps be inclined to think that their work 
would be chiefly of an honorary and advisory nature, or that there 
was honor and distinction in what they are called on to do. and the 
matter of compensation might, perhaps, properly be fixed at a nom- 
inal figure, or so arranged as to cover their expenses, perhaps, as has 
been suggested. 

Mr. Burke. The men contemplated by this bill would be men of 
such pressing affairs that they would not be able to give very much 
of their time to the details of the work of the commission, would 
they, other than in an advisory capacity? 

Professor Andrews. If their services were given even in an ad- 
visory capacity, it would mean that they would have to come together 
frequently and expend a considerable number of hours, say half a 
dozen or a dozen times a year, in talking over matters and plans and 
selecting materials and in discussing and giving advice, which would 
involve a considerable expenditure of time; and I think even then, 
in that case, some compensation should be offered. It would be rela- 
tively small. 

Mr. Thomas. How did I understand you? I did not quite catch 
that. In England and other countries is the compensation made to 
those who act in an advisory capacity? 

Professor Andrews. No; in England, which I know best, the 
historical manuscripts commission, which in a certain sense corre- 
sponds to this here, although conditions in England are very different 
from those here 

Mr. Thomas. Is the historical manuscripts commission in England 
paid ? 

Professor Andrews. No; that commission is made up of 13 men, 
most of them men of title and men of learning, particularh'' men of 
intellectual ability, who themselves are not paid; but those who 
serve under them are all paid. I mean men like Lord Rosebery, for 
example, who is on the commission. They act simply in an advisory 
capacity. Those who do the work of the commission are paid. 

Mr. Thomas. You mean those who do the clerical part of the 
work? 

Professor Andrews. Those who prepare the actual reports are 
paid, and well paid. 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Thomas. I have none. 

The Chairman. That is all. Professor. Now, Mr. Putnam. 



16 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

STATEMENT OF MR. HERBERT PUTNAM, LIBRARIAN OF 

CONGRESS. 

Mr. Putnam. Mr. Chairman, I was not asked to come in support 
of this bill. I am here at your suggestion. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. PirTNAM. But I will also say that I have a keen interest, as 
Librarian of Congress, in the project in substance. The interest is 
one that shouhl be shared by every establishment of the Government 
that has in its custody uuinuscript material of interest to the histor- 
ical investigator. The need of some connnisslon of experts to con- 
sider the material as yet unprinted, to report upon its character and 
value, to deterniiue the method of publication and the order of pub- 
lication is. I tiiink. somewhat apparent from the fact that the Gov- 
ernment has been spending for scores of years nearly $170,000 a 
year, and yet this counnittee finds yet to be done the work indicated 
in this report [indicating same]. 

Nearly twenty-five years ago, in 1887, a connnis>ion was created by 
Congress to consider and report to Congress upon the character and 
value of the manuscript material in the possession of the Govern- 
ment having historical interest, and the method and policy that 
should be pursued with reference to the publication of it, or of any 
part of it. That counnission was to consist of the Secretary of 
State, the Librarian of Congress, and the Secretary of the Smith- 
sonian Instituti(m. So far as I am aware, it never met; certainly 
since I have been in office, nearly elev^eu years, I have had no in- 
timation of any activity on its behalf. It is very natural that there 
should not have been any meeting, liecause it was composed of three 
heads of government establishments not in themselves expert in the 
subject-matter, and in any event dependent u])on outside counsel 
for that portion of their rei)ort which should deal with the very 
questions upon which they were called upon to report. 

Now, the Librarian of Congress, as I remarked, has a special in- 
terest in such a project as this; has had since 1903, when by a joint 
resolution Congress practically recognized it to be the main reposi- 
tory of that material in the possession of the Government which 
might have interest for the historical investigator. That resolution 
was an enabling resolution which authorized any executive depart- 
ment, bureau, any government establishment, in fact, to turn over 
to the Library of Congress material in its possession of historical 
interest no longer requisite for administrative purposes; and the 
result of that resolution has been, by subsequent executive order, to i 
concentrate in the Library of Congress a considerable portion of : 
such material ; a considerable amount. I should say, not proportion, 
because vast bodies or accumulations still remain in the executive | 
departments, as is indicated by this report. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have recited this because, if not now, then 
a little later, should this bill be pursued, the question may arise as 
to the attitude toward the work of such a commission — as to the re- 
lations with it that would be sustained by the government estab- 
lishments having custody of such material. I can only speak for 
ourselves. We have the custody of material of great importance, 
some of which we have undertaken already to see in print, other parts 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 17 

of which, including, for instance, the Andrew Jackson papers, it is 
important should go into print; and, I wish to be perfectly explicit, 
that for the Library of Congress I see in such a commission an im- 
portant, practically an indispensable, aid if only to guide it in the 
selection of material for publication and to sustain it in such pub- 
lications as it may undertake. We should welcome extremely such 
a commission, and in general would feel that it would represent not 
merely increased efficiency, proper coordination due to a systematic 
plan, a selection or publication in the proper order of relative im- 
portance, but also a very great economy. Indeed, from the point 
of view of the Government as against that of the outsider, interested 
in the subject-matter merely, it seems to me that the resulting econ- 
omy that would be secured by a systematic plan and the execution 
of it under a commission of experts — that economy may well be put 
to the front as the chief argument for such a commission. 
'i Mr. Bi KKE. What, in your opinion, would the estimated c(»t of 
fcarrying on this work under a commission be, Mr. Putnam? 
'• Mr. Putnam. I have not considered that at all, Mr. Burke. Of 
course there would be the minimum expense for the administration 
of the commission, the paid secretary, the clerical work, the traveling 
expenses of the counnissioners. That would be the minimum. Then, 
of course, there Avould be the actual work of editing and preparing 
the material for publication and seeing it through the press. That 
would vaiy, of course, according to the undertaking. 

Mr. BuKKE. In this statement of $170,000 a year liaving been paid, 
has there been a considerable sum paid each year, or a large sum 
paid out in a few years, and then have we been running at les-s? 

Mr. Putnam. Doctor Jameson can tell us how far that estimate 
goes back. I think it runs back for nearW forty years, does it not? 

Doctor Ja.mesox. Not so long. The tables given there (p. 7), as 
prepared b}' Mr. Ford from the reports of the printing investigation 
committee, run, I believe, from 1890 to 1907 or 1908, and the sum of 
$169,000, as given there, is the average for those nineteen years. 

The Chairman. The Government had finished the publication of 
the war records in 1890 or 1893, I think. 

Doctor Jameson. A good deal of the expenditure there tabulated 
is for the war records. 

The Chairman. I thought they were mainly printed before 1893. 

Doctor Jameson. The publication began in 1881. In 1890 I do not 
believe it was half done. 

The Chairman. I was thinking that in 1893 the Eecords of the 
Confederate Armies had been printed in full. 

Mr. Thomas. I think they were reprints. 

Doctor Jameson. The total given liere for the whole period since 
1890 is $2,875,000, and the Official Eecords of the War of the Rebel- 
lion are set down as having cost $1,881,000 of that. That would be, 
in round numbers, $1,900,000 of war records and a million of other 
things, so that the average is $159,000. including such expenditures 
upon the war records as came within the period since 1890. 

The Chairman. Then, aside from the war records, it would be 
something like $60,000 a year? 

Doctor Jameson. Something between sixty and seventy thousand 
dollars. 

21918— N H P— 10 2 



18 NATIONAL HISTORICAL. PUBLICATIONS. 

Mr. Bi'KKK. I would like to ask Mr. Putnam as to the size of this 
commission. ;!s to whether nine is a proper nnmber, or whether it 
Avonhl be better to have a less nnmber? 

Mr, PiiTNA.Ai. If the service were to be pnrely execntive, I should 
on general principles think a smaller nnmber preferable; but as it 
is to be very largely advisory, the ability to have represented on the 
commission the dift'erent points of view, the different specialties that 
may be involved, can, of cmirse. be brought about only by a com- 
mission at least as large, as nine. I think the fact that in this report 
itself this counnittee was able to draw into its service men who 
are experts in the naval records, men who are experts in the war 
records, Men who had special knowledge of our diplomatic history, 
and so on, iiidicates a variety of experience and judgment that would 
be highly serviceable upon such a commission. 

Mr. Burke. Your opinion, then, as I understand it. is that a com- 
mission as large as nine would necessarily have to be largely advisory? 

Mr. Putnam. No, sir. In Order to have it completely advisory, to 
cover the field, nine members Avould be none too many; but with the 
exj^ectation that when it came to the more executive part of its 
work there would be subdivisions within itself into small committeefe 
actik'ally executive. 

" Ml". BuRJCE. What have you to say as to the advisability of mem- 
bersi of this commission l)eing comjjensated or not ? 

Mr. Pi TNA.M. I have not given that question any consideration at 
a;llv Mr. Burke. 

Mr. Burkp:. I suppose, if such a connnission was created, they 
would haA'eto have an office in Washington. Would it be practr- 
cable for this commission to be located in the Library building, and 
couldi'they be acconnnodated there? 

u J^^ii-. If iiTNAM. We should certainly strain every effort to accom- 
mochitit'i them, and I have no doubt that we should succeed. 

Mr. Tito MAS. Mr. Putnam, the Library of Congress collects a 
large amount of historical material, does it not? 

' Mri PuTNAiM. Yes. We have added to Avhat had been in the 
Library when it was moved over from the Capitol much material 
from other governmental establishments, e. g. the manuscripts which 
have come to us from the State Department, including the papers 
of various Presidents and the papers of the Continental Congress, 
and a large mass of personal papers, including those of Andrew 
Jackson. 

Mr. Thomas. My understanding was that you have been doing 
a large amount of work in that direction. 

Mr. Putnam. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas, This commission would cooperate with the Libra- 
rian of Congress in the collection of historical material. Avoidd it? 

Mr. Putnam. In the collection of it? 
■ Mr. Thomas. Yes; in the collection of it. It woidd be coopera- 
tive work, would it not ? 

Mr. Putnam.' It woidd be distinctively cooperative, from our 
poiiit 'of viewJ The commission would consider the collections of 
the Library of Congress as one fraction of the governmental collec- 
tions*; It should tflke the governmental collections as a Avhole and 
consider the relative order of importance of the material in each 
with reference to the one grand scheme of publication. It would 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS, 19 

be in that sense free from the excessive enthusiasm which the Library 
of Congress might have for certain of the materials in the Library, 
which the Secretary of State might have for certain material in his 
own archives in the State Department, and which the Secretary of 
War might have for certain material in the War Department. 
Under our recently existing system these enthusiasms may be.brought 
to bear upon Congress without reference to one another; arid they 
may not be correlated in any Avay, so that different governimmtal 
agencies may succeed^ — out of the same public Treasury— in promot- 
ing schemes of jjublication which, while perfectly suitable and mieri^ 
torious in themselves, have no relation to a larger scheme, and do 
not recognize any relative importance as to subject-matter. As to 
this temptation we in the Library are in the same positiou as any 
department having government material in its custody. 

Mr. Tho:mas. This would aid you in the publication of a vast 
amount of material which the Library has now, and in getting more? 

Mr. Pftnam. Yes. The commission would consider not merely 
the material in the possession of the Government, but material in 
private hands; and I think that, incidentally, their investigations 
might result in bringing to the Library of Congress additional 
material. 

Mr. Th<):\ias. Now. on the question of economy, would this.com- 
mission aid you. or not aid you, to a certain extent in economizing 
^expenditures in the collection of historical material, upon which 
you are now probably expending a considerable amount of money? 

Mr. Putnam. Yes; I think it w-ould. I thought of the economy as 
to the Government as a Avhole. rather than as to any one institution 
considered solely ; but we should be benefited, undoubtedly. We 
should be saved considerable publication or the material in our posses- 
sion might be so coirelated with the material in other government 
Establishments that there would necessarily be economy. Edit<^rial 
work may be saved. 

Mr. Thomas. It would necessarily residt in economy to the Gov- 
lernment ? 

I Mr. Putnam. I think so. 

'. Mr. Burke. The greatest saving would be that similar publications 
to those that may have been heretofore published would probably not 
be published if vou had such a commission? For instance, there is 
$L881,000 expended for the publication of the Official Pvecord of the 
War of the Kebellion. It seems to me that a commission would not 
probably recommend that so large a sum as that shoidd be expended 
upon that publication. That is a mere matter of opinion, however. 

Mr. Putnam. I suppose that some of the material that has gone 
into print would perhaps not have gone, or would not have gone 
into print at the time that it did. if such a conniiission were advising 
the Government. But I do not wish that remark to ai)ply to that 
particular publication, which I think is of very great value. 

Mr. Thojias. T know it is a very valuable one. I know there is a 
vast amount of historical material in the States, and I should think 
there is a vast amount of historical material in the possession of 
the National Government, 
v. The Chairman. Undoubtedlv. 



20 NATIONAL, HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

Mr. Thomas. There has been recently an awakening, as was said 
this morning, as to the value of historical material. T know it is so in 
my own State of North Carolina. 

Mr. Putnam. And also. Mr. Thomas, in nearly every State is there 
a similar recognition of this need by the creation of historical com- 
missions. It is an anachronism that the Federal Government has not 
now a historical commission. 

Mr. Thomas. T had thought that Ave had already collected a large 
part of our historical material in North Carolina, but I find now that 
we have collected but a small part of it. The state historical society 
is now doing a very valuable work in that direction. 

The Chairman. Woidd either of you ladies desire to say anything? 

STATEMEITT OF MISS RUTH PUTNAM, SPECIALIST IN DUTCH 
HISTORY, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Miss PrTNAM. We did not expect, Mr. Chairman, to have any- 
thing to say here, but we heartily indorse the idea that has been dis- 
cussed here. We know the amount of waste work which has been 
done in all individual collections and all individual publications, and 
we know it is something that comes to the notice of every student, 
either small or great. Tt would seem to me that it is only the most 
rational thing in the world to bring into line all the publications 
that have to do with the Government and to ])ro]>erly proportion 
them. 

As Mr. Putnam has just stated, in substance, any one person 
naturally overestimates the very small circle in which he or she is 
working. It is impossible, if you are attached to your idea, not to 
feel the importance of that idea; and it seems to me that a commis- 
sion over and above all the small and local specialists is the most im- 
portant thing for the Government. I came here only by chance, and 
I am extremely interested in this discussion as a representative of 
a large class of what I may call "' browsing historians,'"' and I think it 
is a most important and most economical thing to do, to put all this 
work into proper proportion and to provide expert judgment and 
direction to tlie material which the Government ought to collect and 
publish. 

The Chairman. There is a letter from Mr, Albert Bushnell Hart, 
president of the American Historical Association, which can be 
printed. 

Following is the letter referred to: 

Ol'Kll'i: Ol' I'lilSlDKM OK Am I'lUCAX IIlST()i:i( Al, Assot (AllON. 

Ihirnird T'liii-risitii. ('(iiiihi iih/r. Mass.. .hunidnj .'. HUi). 
Hon. Sami'ki. \V. .M((V\i.i„ 

House of /i'ciiii'stntdiiri.s. \\ iisltliKjtoii . />. ('. 

DioAit Mi{. Mc(l\i.i.: As oiio (if your fonstitnoiils. .nul ;U llu' sninc time as a 
iji('inl>(>r of Mu' coiiMiiittt'o on (lociniM'iUary historicnl inihlic-itions of the United 
States (Jovernnunit. I Xwi^ to nsk tlie siieciiil attention of tlu' Lilirnvy Coiuiuit- 
tee lo the bill ( H. R. l.')42S) now pendin.i; in Con.irrcss foi- the aiipointnient of 
a eoniiiiission on national historical laihlieations. 

The reason for an appointnient of the eonnnittee (whose yeport has led up 
to the hill) was the conviction of a great many people who use the sources 
of the history of the United States, that the fjovernment publications on that 
subject are very incomplete. The Government has published large quantities 
of material of an liistorical nature — most of it valuable; but it is so discon- 
necte<l, and in many cases so incomplete, that there are gi-eat gajis. Further- 



NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 21 

more soiiif uf the j^oveniiiieiil sets ;ire uot euiivi'iiieatly arrangt'd or indexed, 
because made np by persons who were not acquainted with th« devices for 
bringing out the material, and malcing it available. Considering the signifi- 
cance of the United States in history, the rich materials existing in the gov- 
ernment archives, the importance to scholars of opening up the unprinted docu- 
ments and of rearranging and reissuing some of the printed series which have 
now become so rare that they can hardly be found at all, has not the time 
arrived for the Goverimient to authorize a systematic group of publications? 
Such a measure is necessary in the interests of economy. At present the his- 
torical publications of the Government are issued by various departments in 
various scales, out of different appropriations: there are some duplications, 
and it is not the business of anybody to consider what is the most important 
work to take up next. 

I am convinced now, as I was during the discussions of the committee, that 
the only practicable way to make the historical publicjitions accord in extent 
and thoroughness with the dignity of the Government is to place that function 
in the hands of one commission. This would not in any way interfere with 
publications made by the departments for dei>artmeiital purposes — such as 
the Treaties. IMoore's Digest of International Law. the collection of Indian 
treaties, etc.; nor does it interfere with the special publications of the Library 
of Congress. I believe that a commission of experts — of whom some would 
naturally be connected with the public service — is better fitted to deal with such 
a function than any individual or inter-departmental committee or commission. 

Such a coumiission, however, would be of very little service unless it had 
positive powers. The experience of review commissions throughout the country 
is unfortunate. Most of the municipal art commissions, for example, which have 
power to pass on designs for monuments and public structures accomplish very 
little, except an occasional scrimmage. The experience of the board of editors 
of the American Historical Association, which for fifteen years has carried on 
a periodical of national sco]ie, shows that such a commission may be expected 
to work harmoniously and effectively ; and the relations between the American 
Historic;il Association, which has a charter from the Government and for 
twenty years has had its report printed by the Government, through the Smith- 
sonian Institution, proves that a body of learned men outside the public service 
can act in harmony with the officials of the Government. 

I heartily hope that the bill will go through substantially as drafted. Any 
change which took away the positive and responsible character of the commis- 
sion would, in my judgment, prevent its ca.rrying out the purpose for which it is 
proposed. 

With highest resi»ect. I have the honor to l)e. 

Yours, very truly. Albert Bushnkll Habt. 

Mr. Adams. Mr. Chainnaii, 1 would merely like to say that I do 
not think there i^ any real dift'erence between Admiral Mahan and 
myself. The j)oint that Avas raised was perfectly covered by Mr. 
Putnam, or the gentleman who preceded him, Avhen he drew the dis- 
tinction between the advisory and the executive features of the work. 
The advisory, in my opinion, should not be paid. Right there the line 
is drawn, and I think it is a great mistake to fix what must be a very 
small compensation to an advisory commission, and it makes it a 
temptation for very inferior men who desire to get on it. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF PROF. CHARLES M. ANDREWS. 

Professor Axi>rp:ws. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say in regard 
to the Historical Manuscripts Association in England, to prevent 
possible misunderstanding, that the thirteen members who constitute 
that commission are very largely honorary members, who do no work 
at all. But the fact that that commission is made up so largely of 
men who represent the nobility and the more honorable classes of 
England is due to the necessity not only of having a very dignified 
body, but also to the necessity of obtaining for the commission from 



22 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

the families of England or of Great Britain the material Avhich it is 
the object of the commission to get and to bring jiressui-e to bear 
upon those families in order to get them to allow the transmission 
of that material from their own houses to the record office. The 
policj' of having a master of the rolls or a dozen lords on that com- 
mission is a matter of great importance in that regard. I would 
say that the thirteen membei's have practically nothing to do except 
to act in that honorary capacity, 'llie practical Avork of advice, even, 
is performed only bv one or two of them, and in the main the recom- 
mendations are made largely by those who are subordinate, and those 
recommendations emanate largely from the public record office itself, 
so that I do not think there is any analogy between that English 
system and the system that would exist here. 

The C'liAimiAx. They are appointed there hirgely because of their 
infiueiu-e and infoi-mation ^ 

Profes-^or Andhkws. Yes; and because of the English practice to 
put men of dignity and honor on public bodies merely to give a 
certain " front." which pleases the Englishmen as a whole. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF DR. J. FRANKLIN JAMESON. 

Doctoi' .[ameson. Mr. Chairnuui, if I might I should like to. speak 
of one additional mattei'. a mattei* concerning which I)(^ctor (^olen- 
brander s])oke to me in the car when we were coming u]) here; and 
when I spoke befoi'e T was not aware that he would not dwell npoii it. 
The uuitter of the relations of such a conmiission to existing agencies 
in the Government, which also publish histi)rical material, has been 
spoken of once oi' twice. My view had been that if such a commis- 
sion was created, a commission with initiative, and if it started a 
good seiies of j^ublications ])aid for out of appr()j)riations of its OAvn, 
the ert'ecl of that would be that, without statutory prohibition, ex- 
isting agencies, deijartments. and so forth, v.hich ha\"e published his- 
torical materials heretofore, would presently, before long, come into 
the habit of looking to such a connnission to take charge of the his- 
torical publications which they believed to be expedient. r;itlier than 
do them themselves. 

In the i-ej)ort of the conunittee a somewhat el;d)orate scheme of 
cooperation between this connnission or subconunittees of it and the 
depnrtmciit.-. is outlined, not put in the draft of tlie bill, but added 
at the end of our report because it seemed too much a matter of detail. 
There is. of course, at the start of a new connni-^sion something invid- 
ious in gi\ ing it ])Owers over, or any opportunity of repression upon., 
institutions of government that ha\'e b?en in the habit of generating 
and carrying foi'ward their own jmblications. But Doctor Colen- 
brander tells me that in the Dutch system precisely v«'hat I ha\e sug- 
gested above has taken place. There is no statutory prohibition on 
the ministries which l)re^'ents them from goino- forward and gener- 
ating still further historical publications in the future, as they have 
been in the habit of doing in the past, but as :i matter of practice, 
after a few years of the existence of the roj^al commission on govern- 
mental liistorical publications, the ministers have practically ceased 
to publish anything of that sort inde]:)endently, but turn over all 
such jdeas and projects and the execution of them to this connnission. 



NATIONAL, HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 28 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF DR. H. T. COLSNBRANDER. 

Doctor CoLENBRANDER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask permis- 
sion to speak a few words in regard to statements that have been 
made since I spoke before you a little while ago. One is as to con- 
ditions of pay for different sorts of work in connection with such an 
undertaking. With us the membership of the connnission itself is 
not paid, and it is considered as a matter of honor to serve on that 
commission. But the secretary is paid, and well paid, and it has 
been bur experience that one ought to do so. The duty of the secre- 
tary of a commission like this, even in snch a small country as Hol- 
land, involves so much labor that he should be liberally compensated, 
the same as in other scientific employments. The actual work in 
connection with the publication of documents is either not |)aid for 
or paid for, according to circumstances. It often happens tha.t, a 
thoroughly well-fitted person offers himself to do things without 
pay. Other cases occur in which a small compensation is necessary 
to obtain the disposal of the time of somebody. A third case, which 
often occurs, and which we are providing for just now, is to pay a 
man absolutely for putting himself at the entire disposal of the 
commission in undertaking work of such dimensions as can not be 
paid for by mere Avages. Thus it occurs that a man is absolutely 
paid for some years for such a time as he may be serving in that 
work. 

As to the number of our commission, our act of institution says 
that the number should not be less than seven. As a matter of fact, 
there are ten, and should be. because the amount of labor and studies 
to be divided among them is so great that even if you have a number 
such as four or five of the most competent persons they will not 
happen to be sufficiently competent on all the subjects that come be- 
fore them, so that it has become desirable to take in a larger number 
of people. It has no appreciable effect on the cost of the thing, be- 
cause the only expenses that are paid are the traveling expenses. 
That is the situation in our country. 

(Thereupon, at 11.45 o'clock a. m., the committee adjourned.) 

LiBu.vRY OF Congress, 
\Vashin(/toii. Janiiaiif (U 1910. 
Mr. Cuaikman: As I \v;is the only spokesman at the heaiinji yestei'day rej)- 
vesenting an estahlisbuient of the Government, it may not be su])erfinous if I 
add to my testimony this summary of the reasons why such a connnission as is 
proposed should l)e welcomed in the interest of the Government itself. These 
reasons suHiciently aiqicar in the aid which it wonlil afford to the Library of 
Conjrress. in particular in these respects: 

1. In the case of ])nblications to be undertaken by the library (as to which its 
service would be merely advisory), it would .eive expert aid in the selection of 
the group of material and in the elimination from this grout) of irrelexant or 
vniimportant matter, and it would advise as to scope, method, and form. 

2. Where the commission was not merely to advise, but itself to edit and pub- 
lish, it would relieve the library not merely of the decision upon all of the 
above questions, but of the preparation of the material for puI)lication. the 
editorial work, and the supervision through the press. 

This relief would be most welcome, for the library, being a library, its staff 
is and should be primarily engaged with the acquisition of material, its classi- 
fication, cataloguing, administration, and exhibit in lists and calendars. It has 
no appropriation for editorial work as such. Any labor devoted to it has meant 
either diversion of officials from administrative work during library hours or 
overtime worlv in miofficial liours. For tlie publications (of manuscript ma- 



24 NATIONAL HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS. 

terial) which it has undertaken, it has had competent experts in Mr. Worthing- 
ton Ford and his successor, Mr. Gail lard Hunt. It can not expect to be equally 
fortunate with regard to every field or period to which its material may relate. 

3. IS the above considerations apply to it, a library, they would seem to apply 
with e^n greater force and in greater dimension to any executive department 
of the %iavernment. 

4. Even granting within the library or any such department ability to select, 
to edit, and to publisli material useful in itself, there is no assurance that the 
selection would be that required by a larger expediency, viewing the collections 
of the Government as a whole, nor that in form and method any particular 
publication would be correlated with others similar in nature. 

Proper coordination, proper correlation, scientific selection, expert editor- 
ship, f^|d uniformity, with all the resultant efficiencies and economics, can be 
secnre^u only one way — by the concentration of the responsibility and the 
direction in a central body or commission of experts such as is proposed. 
Very respectfully, 

Herbert Putnam, 

Librarian of Vongress. 
Hon. S. W. McCall, 

Chairm-n^Committce on the Library, 

m House of RepresentativeH, Waxhington. 



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